ManageWP-Why-I-Switched-to-a-WordPress-Theme-Framework

Why I Switched to a Theme Framework

ManageWP-Why-I-Switched-to-a-WordPress-Theme-Framework

Before diving into why I decided to switch from a standalone theme to a theme framework it’s probably a good idea to begin by explaining the difference between the two.

A standalone theme is just that: an individual theme that houses your WordPress site’s design as well as some basic functionality. When you get a WordPress theme framework though you’re getting one of two things: 1) A “drop-in” code library that is used to facilitate development of a Theme; or 2) A stand-alone base/starter Theme that is intended either to be forked into another Theme, or else to be used as a Parent Theme template.

Until recently, as the title of this post would suggest, I had a standalone theme that I had purchased through the Themeforest marketplace. And I thought I was really happy with it.

So why did I decide to make the switch?

It All Started with a Comment

A comment beat-down actually. Delivered right here on the ManageWP Blog; in the comments section of my first post no less.

I had just delivered a gushing review of the Website theme which I’d recently purchased and installed for my own site and titled the post: How-to Install & Configure What May Be 2013’s Best Premium WordPress Theme.

And I meant it!

Screenshot of the "website" theme.
The “Website” theme — I was drawn in by its aesthetic beauty.

But then a reader jumped into the discussion and rather bluntly corrected me.

Dan said:

This theme is fairly awful to deal with. I picked up a client who is using it, and I highly disrecommend it. They got hacked because of it, but that’s not even the main reason I dislike it. Here’s the main reason why “Website” is a bad theme:

It violates the officially recommended and proper practices for theme development by adding extensive functionality and custom content types to the theme’s functions.php file rather than separate plugins. You’ll lose all your custom content and those plugins if you ever switch to another theme. You’d have to extensively modify the new theme to work the same wrong way, or else do what the developer should have done and move all the custom content and functionality to plugins. Most people who buy these themes can’t do this themselves or even understand the issue.

This is not an isolated story. It’s well known that many Themeforest developers ruin the flexibility of WordPress by refusing to separate functionality and content from presentation. You may not even need or want all the bells and whistles they pack into their themes, but like it or not, you get it with no way to cut it off.

Expect support to suck as well. Upgrades may never be offered, and when they are then tend to be patches emailed on demand (if your emails aren’t ignored) or zip packages to download and install over the old version.

To which I replied:

Hi Dan, thanks for sharing your story. Obviously you’ve had your own experiences with this theme and you didn’t enjoy it. However my own experience (and many others) has been vastly different. Since I’ve owned a license to the “Website” theme I’ve had consistent updates as well as reliable and quick support response. Which is why I feel your accusations at the end of your comment a bit unfair as they do not seem to reflect the reality experienced by this theme’s actual customers.

On the other hand, I understand your critique about added functionality in certain themeforest themes. Obviously this is a hotly contested issue and there are multiple viewpoints on it. I have found that some (if not most) users find the extra functionality now helps them get where they need to be in the future – regardless of the possible challenges as a result. I’m not saying that is always the case, but it stands to reason that someone – like you said above – without the ability to add functionality themselves might lean on a robust theme to help their site get traction for a year or two. After that they can make changes, hire help if need be, and “do things right.”

And then I was smacked down again by Dan with:

Nathan — It’s not a matter of “not enjoying” the theme or some kind of “controversy” about which people can reasonably disagee. Themes like “Website” violates the consensus standards of the best WP theme developers, the WP codex, and common sense. They do it to lure and lock in amateur users and to simplify work for themselves. Period.

I have access to updates for this theme through the license holder. They never applied any of the updates because they had someone customize it directly, and the updates would overwrite the modifications. A child theme should have been created to prevent this, but unlike BETTER theme developers, Website does not come with a blank child theme and is built in a way that makes it especially challenging to work with through a child theme, which is also the officially recommended way to customize themes.

Your argument makes no sense — buy a badly written theme, load it with content, and a year or two later spend a lot of time and money porting it to another theme? If you get a properly contructed theme in the first place, all your content and functional customizations are instantly portable to any other theme — anyone could do it. Huge difference. Themeforest junk like “Website” just adds a huge hidden cost that will come due on the unwitting user in short order if they have any significant content that is not something they consider disposable.

After which I meekly limped away from the conversation with a placating response:

Dan – You’ve brought up some excellent points. I can only say that I will have to look into these issues more thoroughly – possibly resulting in a follow-up post. I wrote this post because I have used this theme a lot and found it (and the theme developer) to perform excellently.

Ouch!

Obviously, I had some research to do. Beyond the incident being a bit embarrassing, I ultimately have a responsibility to be aware of these types of issues and how they affect users. Especially if I’m reviewing and recommending a product.

Thankfully all I had to do was google “problems with themeforest themes” and begin reading. Dan was also kind enough to drop a few helpful links in another comment. The most helpful being a Themeforest thread about forward compatibility in which everything that really needs to be said on the subject is thoroughly covered by several reputable developers.

He Was Right and I Was Wrong

While at the moment I was extremely happy with my beautiful looking theme that was chock full of useful features, it was definitely going to come back to haunt me if I didn’t make a change fast. My pages and posts were riddled with shortcodes and custom post types unique to my theme. Making a change to another theme a year or two down the road would be near impossible.

But that reality didn’t change what I was looking for in a theme. As a non-developer (which is why I wasn’t as familiar as I should have been with this issue in the first place) I still needed a theme that provided as much control as possible over theme functionality, design customizations, and content formatting – without getting into any code.

The answer (at least for me) was switching to a quality theme framework that provides those features while remaining in-line with WordPress theme development standards and best practices.

After asking around a bit as well as doing some independent research and comparison, the following theme frameworks topped my list of potential choices (in no particular order):

Why I Went with the Genesis Framework

When it came time to make a purchase I was deadlocked between two choices: WooThemes and Genesis. All of the theme frameworks had some impressive pros and very few cons. But in my opinion these two options provided the best value at the intersection of design customizability, easy to implement features, page/post formatting and affordable pricing.

Prose, the Genesis child theme of my choice, was a lot like “Website” in that out of all the Genesis child themes available it had the most customization options available from the admin. And everything else I wanted came in the form of pre-written code snippets as well as an extensive array of plugins for me to pick and choose from.

A screenshot of the "Prose" theme.
Prose in action.

On the other hand I was also really impressed with the Canvas theme from WooThemes. If anything Canvas was more robust, more customizable, easier to use and more feature rich – with an equally if not more impressive array of powerful plugins.

A screenshot of the "Canvas" theme.
Canvas — an excellent theme framework.

The only problem was that when I looked at the pricing options the developer package for Canvas was $150 plus an additional $30 for lifetime support/updates. Where as Prose running on Genesis (which uses one framework pricing package for all) only cost $84.95 and included support and updates at no extra cost.

So I went with Genesis.

Benefits of the Switch

After going through the predictably annoying process of putting my website on maintenance mode, deactivating “Website” and installing Genesis with Prose – I was pleased to take stock of the many benefits to this choice:

  • A theme design that’s easy to customize
  • Multiple layout options for each page
  • An instant increase in site speed (especially when combined with a caching plugin)
  • Industry leading security
  • Industry leading search engine optimization
  • A thriving community of fellow genesis users and developers
  • Rock solid code that follows WordPress theme development standards and best practices
  • Amazing support, free resources, and tutorials
  • And of course a WordPress website that is essentially “future-proof” as I will be able to make any future design changes, including a new child theme, without putting my content or site functionality at risk.

Final Thought

When it’s all said and done I’m really happy I made the switch. I feel much more confident about the future of my website after having “built it” on a solid foundation. Do I wish I could have been clued in to this need in a less embarrassing more polite way? Sure. But that was my fault. I should have known about those issues before promoting a theme that is ultimately misleading and potentially disastrous to someones blog or business.

What about you? Have you had issues with forward theme compatibility? Do you now use a framework like me? Tell me your theme stories and post responses in the comments below!

Nathan Weller Avatar

81 responses

  1. PAK Oregon Avatar
    PAK Oregon

    Just saw your post on FaceBook related to theme frameworks. Wasn’t even sure what a theme framework was. I have been using Weaver II Pro for a couple of years now and it seems to me that Weaver is a theme framework environment.

    Weaver II Pro allows me to do just about anything I can dream up. Every time I think I have found something Weaver can’t do after a bit of effort on my part I find the solution within Weaver’s environment.

    I don’t like custom coding for a couple of reasons. First off I don’t have much if any experience and secondly custom coding can if not managed carefully lead to issues when the underlying code changes. I am also a stickler for staying current with WordPress and plugin versions.

    My goal with all my client’s sites is to provide them with something that can be easily picked up by someone else in the future. I have inherited a couple of WP sites that contained custom coding and they gave me fits till I migrated to a Weaver environment.

    I was wondering if you considered Weaver when you wrote this piece. Please don’t judge Weaver’s abilities by my implementations. My client’s sites are only limited by my limitations and not that of Weaver. 😉

  2. cajebo Avatar
    cajebo

    Kudos Nathan.

    I too was in the mix of that original post, and actually purchased that theme following your review for a little one-off site for a friend. And, like Dan, in just a few minutes after installation, I was in the ‘regret-zone’.

    But with that being said, I can appreciate and enjoyed your tasty cooking, and consumption, of crow.

    Well done, Bravo.

    Michael

  3. Mike Zielonka Avatar
    Mike Zielonka

    Hi Nathan!

    I’ve been though this battle many times and have fallen in love with PageLines (http://iammike.co/pagelines). IMO PageLines is much more module and gives you more control on what you load and how you extend it. It’s very developer friendly for child themes and you can still control a lot of the options via the admin panel. Granted, PageLines doesn’t have the quantity of child themes that Genesis has, it’s still has a great growing selection.

    I’m curious why you eliminated PageLines early on when selecting a framework?

    Mike

  4. Linda Avatar
    Linda

    I’ve been using Genesis now ever since it came out and love it. I have always been a fan of anything Brian Gardner/Studiopress creates so it was a “no brainer” for me to switch over to the Genesis Framework when it came along. You won’t find better, and the price is so reasonable.

  5. bud@budfawcett.com Avatar
    bud@budfawcett.com

    I recently created a website with genesis/metro and after using 20 other themes for the last year, I get it!

  6. Matthew Stibbe (@TurbineHQ) Avatar
    Matthew Stibbe (@TurbineHQ)

    Good article. I’ve been badly burned by cheaply-developed WordPress custom themes and off-the-shelf themes that ended up requiring a ton of work to maintain and support. I’m going through the same process as you, although I’m making the switch to Canvas and I’m just going through some initial testing on one of my sites. I also have Thesis on a number of sites but I’m a little anxious about the migration to version 2.0 of that theme and so I’m considering switching all my Thesis sites to WooPress themes too so that there is at least some consistency across all the sites I run. It’s going to be a long journey but your point about the hidden costs is absolutely true in my experience and I’m sure the end result will be worth it in the long run.

  7. Monte Martin Avatar
    Monte Martin

    Nathan, I switched to Genesis for all my clients about a year ago after reading some of the same arguments your’ve presented.

    Another framework I think really deserves mentioning is Justin Tadlock’s ThemeHybrid (http://themehybrid.com/). You can download it free. Support and premium content is a very low annual fee. Much more cost effective than some of the other premium themes.

  8. Mario Peshev Avatar
    Mario Peshev

    ThemeForest related issues were the reason for me to build http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/dx-shortcode-freezer/ in order to be able to port massive amount of shortcode-driven content to a new theme with less hassle. I know that customers cant deal with extra plugins setup (or anything after the install, they dont follow theme instructions and report non-existing issues) but it makes it impossible to just switch a theme and move on.

  9. George G. Avatar
    George G.

    Interesting that I recently bought a Genesis child theme on ThemeForest from someone who couldn’t be bothered w/ support. I went through the code and everything is logically laid out which made it relatively easy to adjust things myself. But I am put off by the lack of tutorials for Genesis as well as their support, who will not help if you’ve customized your theme (they pass you off to their community-led forum, where you may or may not get an answer). I’ve had a much better support experience w/ the iThemes Builder framework.

  10. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    Oh jeez, I feel like such a mean guy now. Sorry, I make points sharply and am hardly infallible. I learned this stuff the hard way too.

  11. Greg Avatar
    Greg

    Hey Nathan,

    This article was really insightful…thanks! I have been pondering the idea of frameworks for a while. More so recently as the junky SEO built into a Themeforest theme I purchased for my Mum has been causing me no end of problems with Yoast SEO.

    Two thoughts:
    1: Probably most of the “I love my x-y-z framework” internet chatter goes to Genesis, so I am definitely looking into them. However, I have heard that it can get pretty deep and scary for the less technically inclined. Have you found it fairly user friendly?

    2: A really important consideration for me…how do frameworks fare with being updated/managed from inside ManageWP? Is the process the same or any more involved if a new release of a framework is pushed out? I’ve never dealt with any frameworks so wonder what the difference would be if I were managing a bunch of framework’ed sites…?

  12. Scott Frangos Avatar
    Scott Frangos

    Hi Nathan — good article. We like Genesis and just started using it. Prior to that we used (and still do) the Thematic framework which is open source and recently updated. Found a lot written about it in books on WordPress development, and there’s a site with a lot of resources and tutorials here: http://thematicmondo.com/directory/resources-tutorials/

    It reminds me a lot of Genesis, and I think the two influenced each other. There is a robust support community for Thematic, here: http://thematictheme.com/forums/

    Cheers –
    Scott

  13. davemac Avatar
    davemac

    For most of the last year now, I have been using my own customised version of the Reverie Framework (https://github.com/milohuang/reverie) to build WP sites. It uses Zurb’s Foundation (http://foundation.zurb.com/) as the front-end layout framework, which I really love as well.

    Using these tools has dramatically decreased my development time. However, it’s not an end-user theme framework, instead it’s more like a starter framework targeted at WP developers. If other people are interested in my customised version of Reverie, i would be happy to fork it on github …

  14. satori83 Avatar
    satori83

    Nice write up! I have dealt with many of the same issues with theme forest themes. I was looking at genesis for a while also but have been hesitant. I tried the catalyst framework before but it did not work well with my workflow. I have been building a lot of sites with the Striking theme from theme forest though. The support is incredible and it almost acts like a framework. Super fast to slice a psd and make a custom site with. I’m not a paid affiliate or anything just a super fan. It’s kind of like canvas from woo I guess. Hit me up @satori_design and let me know how genesis is going!

  15. dvanoss@parkviewchurch.org Avatar
    dvanoss@parkviewchurch.org

    We decided to go with the Catalyst framework http://catalysttheme.com/ and have been happy so far. I’m in the midst of designing all four of our sites with it, one of which was previously on a custom theme which we can’t update because I no longer want to subscribe to the theme seller. I also had to go the child theme route with it in order to tweak it beyond its own customization. Catalyst provides a custom CSS area and custom hooks and widgets which have proved invaluable. Looking forward to having everything under “one roof” (and updated and backed up by ManageWP.)

    Dan

  16. soflaweb Avatar
    soflaweb

    We have used the wooframe work and while happy with the results, prefer to work with core WordPress instead.
    Frameworks are nice and I have heard good things about the others you mention, however once you choose a framework you are basically tied into it as well.
    As long as you are ok with those limitations you should be fine.
    However you sitll have to learn the Framework you are using to make the most of it.
    Why not just spend that time learning core WordPress functionality and leaving your options completely open.
    The beauty of WordPress is the functionality and the plugins which when put together properly are completely limitless.

  17. Dean Avatar
    Dean

    Great article Nathan. I love that you took time to explain your decision process and its totally awesome to have such a strong WP community and people as Dan, who are willing to contribute and help. The biggest timesaver is not doing the wrong thing. In WP world not using the wrong theme or plugin.

    My issue with lot of WP themes (and I got a few from Themeforest too) is SEO. Or rather the lack of SEO experience by theme developers. You see they get into idea that you want theme because it’s pretty. Oh, its so cool, shiny and have all those jquery or html5 blinks. But wait – is the point of having the theme and website just to look cool? Well for me, as with many other is to drive traffic too. Not ONLY to look cool. So each time I get theme on my hands, I have to do lot of SEO changes to it. What loads first, how h tags are used, how are images treated, how page design effect what will be focus for search engines. And yes, of course I use WordPress SEO plugin, but there is much to theme too.

    Do you have similar experience, or you find that Genesis is a perfect fit from SEO point too? I never used Genesis, but heard a lot about it.

    Cheers
    Dean

  18. herb jones Avatar
    herb jones

    Great post and topic.

    I am curious about Mario’s unique content tool and my firm has used a wide variety of themes but most recently has moved to genesis and woo themes for some of these same concerns.

  19. scott@webdirexion.com Avatar
    scott@webdirexion.com

    Hi Colleagues –

    Great discussion thread, and Nathan… I look forward to a post comparing a number of frameworks.

    One interesting assumption that seems to be in play is that any and all clients will want to change to a different theme. Our business clients don’t think about changing “themes”, but rather “designs” to be built out as a “skin” when their business objectives change. They don’t even know or care about being “stuck” with a framework… which they are not. Child themes, built mostly via image files and CSS, can be moved to different frameworks. And, they are more efficient to build. Thoughts?

  20. Michael Wilson Avatar
    Michael Wilson

    I love the honesty of this post and how you’ve taken a mistake (although with the best of intentions, of course) and turned it into a positive.

    I use the Genesis framework on one of my smaller websites but am still in the process of deciding what to use for my main website (ridiculously it’s still on a free wordpress theme – but I expect this will change in the next month). I’m currently deciding between Genesis’ Prose and Metro theme. Prose is great in that it’s so customisable but Metro looks very similar to what I want anyway, so I may go for that one for its ease of use and almost ‘out of the box’ ‘plug and play’, as it were.

    Great post, Nathan!

  21. Sarah Frantz Avatar
    Sarah Frantz

    I think I would definitely prefer a framework over something you could purchase pre-made from Themeforest, but using a framework is still too limiting in my opinion.

    I feel like with WordPress, most of the time (as a developer) we are trying to stretch the bounds of what WordPress can do, and putting it into the “shell” of a framework confines it more than it already is…

    For rapid development though (of less complex installations), and for those clients who have smaller budgets, frameworks can save a lot of time…

  22. Finetheme Avatar
    Finetheme

    I tin finestemplates dot com are giving good themes for us to select and download and Hosting services details and eBooks download … it’s an good site for to select good themes for all kind of business….

  23. Dan Avatar
    Dan

    Has anyone done a comprehensive review of the leading WP “frameworks” or a short list picked for specific reasons? Differentiating them would be really helpful. So would some clarity about the radically different definitions of “framework” that have come into use.

    The original and technically correct definition of a “theme framework” or “theme development framework” (with no extras) is a PHP-based functional extension of the WordPress core. It allows you to code themes using the features you want from the framework.

    Most popular “frameworks” now are actually highly parameterized parent themes controlled by a big administrative interface. The parent theme relies on a *presentation framework* (typically a responsive grid system) and a *theme development framework.*

    While it’s quite possible to build or install a pre-built theme for a true theme framework that adds a presentation framework and an admin interface and shortcodes to simplify use of their features, usually more of this work is left to you to do. With the most popular “frameworks” now, they’re advertised as making it possible to build sites without touching or understanding a thing about HTML, CSS, or PHP.

    Whether that’s really true is another question. The impact of “frameworks for dummies” could be a lot of generic, bloated sites cranked out quickly by website mills that compete on price in a race to the bottom, but I suppose that is ultimately a self-correcting situation.

  24. scott@webdirexion.com Avatar
    scott@webdirexion.com

    @Sarah – Not sure what you mean about theme frameworks being “limiting”? We have used the Thematic Theme Framework — http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/thematic — for years, and there is nothing it prevents us from doing when building out custom WordPress sites. Unfortunately, I have seen many designers and even developers who look at the basic framework at the link just given and fail to see how it can easily be used to build out anything needed. For example of what I mean, see the gallery of sites built on Thematic, here: http://thematicmondo.com/directory/site-showcase/

    Why Theme Frameworks? Once you learn them your development goes much faster and the basic functionality at the top level is left to the theme framework programmers to keep current.

    @Nathan — I too have noticed the back pedaling by WooThemes and others who had packed too many functions and features (bloated in my opinion) into what was supposed to be a framework ideal for child theme development (like Canvas). Smart move to take out all the SEO functionality and instead recommend the Yoast plugin for same.

    My love of pure frameworks is that you can then just concentrate mostly on CSS for design with some hooks into desired functions as needed.

    – Scott

  25. Mike A Avatar
    Mike A

    Learning the hard way…

    I wish I didn’t have to 🙂 – but that’s life I guess. It would have been great to have read and understood these arguments 12 months or so ago – as I took my first tentative steps as with WP.

    As a relative WP newby I wish these issues were flagged up much more clearly on the WP codex. Maybe I missed them? It’s difficult to research the issues when you don’t know what the issues are.

    I’m a freelance designer and digital illustrator. I need a web site – but I’m not a developer. In years past I’d designed and built a couple of very basic static sites for myself using Dreamweaver. While basic in coding – the DIY approach meant that they could be styled exactly to my liking. They never got updated of course ;). As time moved on and I needed a dynamic site, WP seemed the best option. However – it was only the ‘Themeforest’ type of theme that seemed to offer the degree of customisation I craved.

    A year down the line I find I’ve spent money on more than one premium Themeforest themes. To be fair to the authors, they’ve both given good support. However, I now realise that I’m 80% through the construction of a site that uses custom post types and lots of other stuff that has me totally locked in…

  26. franco265 Avatar
    franco265

    Hi Nathan,

    This is a great article, but I’m still confused as to how to tell whether a particular stand alone theme is an absolute no go. In one of your other articles you said you liked a theme which I’ve been looking at too which is: http://themeforest.net/item/avada-responsive-multipurpose-theme/full_screen_preview/2833226

    Would you consider this an absolute no go?

    Thanks

    Franco

  27. Aress Avatar
    Aress

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing this! I haven’t read a post this helpful (both information-wise and in making me feel less alone) in a long time.

    When I first started out with WP I used Pagelines and I didn’t have a clue of what I was doing! Sites created with Pagelines are beautiful but, for me at least, it is incredibly difficult to customize. Of course I had no idea what the differences where between themes, child themes and frameworks were then!

    When I got frustrated with the whole thing and decided to just go with a theme (or three or four) I liked from Theme Forest, I just made things worse and my entire site became a disaster. There were constant failures, plugins would stop working or didn’t mesh with the theme, mucking through code every time I wanted to change the height of something… It was enough to make me want to throw in my hat, and I did in a way.

    Partly due to the insanity and partly to create a friendlier, more playful brand I decided to start from scratch with a whole new blog. This time around I started with WooTheme’s Canvas on a recommendation from a developer friend. It has a lighter touch than Pagelines and is so much easier to work with. I looked at Genesis several times but it just didn’t catch my fancy the way Canvas did, that and my friend has offered to help with anything I have trouble with.

    In short (which isn’t my strong suit) There are a lot of pretty things on Theme Forest, but just like a Venus Flytrap, some pretty things aren’t worth the trouble they can get you into!

  28. griffin63 Avatar
    griffin63

    Thanks Nathan
    I have used Thesis for 5 years and love the simplicity of customising the theme
    I tried Genesis but realised I needed to know more coding and the theme customisation was more techie
    I also tried Woothemes but just did not get on with the interface
    So I stay with Thesis Theme as I beleive it has the best core coding by Chris Pearson

  29. Pepe Magaña Avatar
    Pepe Magaña

    I use gantry-framework…. the best theme or framework I have ever used.

  30. mohit Avatar
    mohit

    thnks for the info i ll be soon switching to genesis theme!!! ummm not perfect though will give it a try!!!

  31. katherine Avatar
    katherine

    Can you tell me please?

    Does this Genesis framework depend on the developer? What I mean is if the owner of the framework decides to shut down their own server and business, does the framework still work?

    Does the framework “talk” to their server for specific functions, that would no longer work assuming the company was no longer around.

    Thank you for the excellent post.

  32. Elad Avatar
    Elad

    Hey Nathan

    I’d like to hear your opinion on Elegant theme in the context of this subject

    Thanks!

  33. Lawrence Avatar
    Lawrence

    BRAVO!

    Even though my comments are coming to you late in the year, November 2013 late, your entire article is absolutely Brilliant!

    Plus there was no way I could feel okay clicking on another article without giving you a BIG SHOUT OUT of KUDOS with how well you outlined your points. In fact what was quite exceptional was your introduction to your article. —-> I was clearly under the impression you would just be quite clear with pros and cons approach regarding Website vs Frameworks. Obviously I was wrong in my assessment after reading your entire piece.

    I need all the help I can get with choosing the best WP plan and so far I have been quite shocked with Themeforest. Plus I couldn’t put my finger on it until I stumbled upon a theory of mine with why hasn’t any developer created just a straight forward Blank Child theme that could be customized and it’s parent would have all the necessary features that it would need to offer users a foundation to grow without starting from scratch.

    I too went with Genesis but in my opinion there’s not too many options to customize just a simple template nor do they have template options that are just ‘new’. Don’t get me wrong it is by far great but your review on Pagelines is making the case I need to move forward. And in the end your articles made the best sense for me to understand what in the ham sam is going on with WordPress and it doesn’t need to be so damn complicated.

    Thank you so much for this great great piece! This is what you call head line news worthy of just basic investigation helping people like myself see the light of day…..again!

    Now if only we can find a visual WordPress Editor that can tweak any existing WordPress theme while offering a Framework so that best practice standards of WordPress are regularly updated. Am I asking too much for 2014? (Headway does not do this — I found this out the hardway last weekend after my measly purchase)

  34. GilCatt Avatar
    GilCatt

    The Premium vs Framework comparison is becoming a classic.

    To be honest, is such a comparison worthwhile?

    If you are a blogger/business owner who likes the DYI approach, a framework is your best choice indeed. You get a very clean toolbox for a great price.

    If on the other hand you are selling websites to people who will never lift the hood themselves the Premium theme approach wins: the customer’s budget is best invested in content and services. Ask your customers.

    And who cares if the need for a new theme means reorganizing the content from scratch ?
    a. businesses usually don’t publish that much content.
    b. a new website usually comes with revamped/fresh content.
    c. the whole process means more business for web professionals, making the whole food chain happy. What’s wrong with that?

    The framework approach is valid if you’re a blogger who likes to change his website’s theme (almost) as often as his socks, or a publisher. This is not typical of companies. The consensus standards of the best WP theme developers, the WP codex, and “common sense”, are not economically sound when dealing with small businesses on a tight budget.

    This is why a large portion of premium theme buyers on ThemeForest are pros. It’s a great way to keep technical costs low. (And let’s be fair: there are now some very good themes on ThemeForest. If you’re not picking the right one, you’re the only one to blame). A client’s site can be up and running the very day the contract is signed. Nothing wrong with that. And you don’t have to be a developer to sell websites (I shall provocatively add that being one often does not help as far as sales are concerned: clients don’t care about technology, they want options. Jobs understood this quite well: although revered by the tech community, he was a marketing guy.)

    I’d like to push the reasoning even further: consider the rise of the Saas market (WP based happytables.com is a great example).

    Most small businesses (95% of the market) can’t afford a custom website and would rather have their money invested into services. Historically, happytables’ founders sold premium themes. They soon found out that these were too complex for business owners to handle. Content publishing is a chore for most people, even with WP. Besides, their operations could not scale (you can’t realistically handle thousands of end customers with an offer based on premium themes). With this in mind they opted for the Saas business model instead : greatly simplified themes and admin meant more happy clients. The latter may be stuck with a very limited choice of themes, exporting to another provider may not be an option but all this is not an issue. Customers still get a WP website.

    In short: custom websites are not the future when you are talking about sales, except for the higher end of the market.
    The current premium themes market will probably evolve too. Quite a few pros who used to sell websites based on premium WP themes now sell set up, design and content services on SquareSpace. It is easy to understand why. WordPress.com is moving in that direction as well. That is what democratizing web publishing is all about, in Matt Mullenweg’s own words.

    If you’re a DYI fan this whole reasoning doesn’t really matter of course: there will be plenty of great tools such as frameworks in the future to keep on toying with.
    But, unless you’re an elite developer, don’t expect to make a decent living out of it. Code may be poetry, but selling websites is a business.

  35. Kelly Avatar
    Kelly

    Hi Nathan,

    Nearly a year later, I still use your blog post (and Dan’s comments) to illustrate to our clients as to what constitutes a good theme, and the importance of sticking with codex rules.

    I admire you very much for 1) understanding that we, as WP developers, have a responsibility to deliver the best we can to our clients – as their livelihoods are often in our hands 2) being brave enough for stating you were embarrassed and wrong, as this happens to all of us 3) being super gracious!

    I like to think that you and Dan are now buddies – sharing the occasional theme story over a brewski!

    Cheers,
    Kelly from Pongos Interactive

  36. Marc Traverson Avatar
    Marc Traverson

    Hi guys,
    just passing through. This thread was very useful to me. I am just coming from the dinosaur world (typepad), and in the process of migrating onto wordpress. I was getting around all the technical issues, discovering the subtleties of frameworks and child themes – I am certainly not a pure techie. And I found really interesting advices in the article and all your comments. I think I will choose genesis/prose theme. Looks like it can meet my needs. Thanks much for the sharing !

  37. Karshim Kanwar Avatar
    Karshim Kanwar

    We are currently using Genesis framework with Metro Theme. The theme is excellent and I need some editing to be done. I have never tried to get into Genesis support? Any view on that?

  38. Victor Avatar
    Victor

    What are your thoughts on Headway and even the new Divi Builder plugin? I currently use headway and currently considering adding the Divi plugin. Thanks!

  39. Nilanchala Avatar
    Nilanchala

    Some of the comments here are inducing more questions then answering problems. Though I am not having expertise on WordPress development, I believe for high volume traffic websites going with any theme frameworks might not be a best option. It might be good to start with to go live quickly but overtime you will feel to write your own custom theme.

    On my site stacktips.com, I have tried many different frameworks. Currently I am stuck at Redux Framework. It just serve the purpose but it comes with the cost. It makes too many DB queries, and lot many useless code blocks it has to go through before rendering a page.

    Hence, I am writing my own theme from scratch. Design the layouts you need, and place the templates required. I believe thats the way to go! Having said that, if your client is stuck at low budget, you have no choice but to use some frameworks.

  40. Ankur Shrivastava Avatar
    Ankur Shrivastava

    I think Frameworks are better than Themes as it gives better customisation options. I have used Gantry on my website wroffle.com and now it looks much better than ever!

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